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June 05, 2007

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Comments

Ben Casnocha

Pretty incredible account. In some kind of perverse way, I kind of envy the experience you just want through. They really make us think.

Duff

The thing that jumped out at me was WTF is up with 911 being busy for that long?

I've had to call 911 5 or 6 times, mostly to report accidents and drunk drivers. Never ran into an on-hold situation -- especially midday during the week!

anon

Glad you're safe and took the time to share this story.

Here are two more points to ponder when considering the “undeniable folly of guns.”

1. Almost every man in Switzerland owns a gun—some of which are fully automatic.
2. Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

mike mori

Our violent reality intrudes unexpectedly.

Ben: Your desire to wring personal meaning from some guy getting gut shot speaks volumes.

I don't think the problem is guns. I think the problem is that some people expect peace in this world where there should be no such expectation. These will always be surprised by violence even though it is as natural and common as peace if you look closely. I do not say this to glorify it. As long as men envy, they will do violence. Violence in words, in thoughts, in actions, etc. It's always there, most just don't notice until it's lying on the ground in front of them.

Robert Scoble

Wow, what a gripping story. Among the best blog writing I've ever read.

Me

Someone had to pick up that gun and use it.

It was not the gun that committed that crime. It was a man, full of hate and evil. If it were not the gun, it may have been a knife or rock or hammer.

Please tell all your union carpenter friends that they'll have to use glue to construct a home. Hammers kill.

Tyler Martin

Wow, that was incredible.

A similar shooting incident happened right in front of our office building here in the Mission a couple months ago and it was, needless to say, quite traumatizing.

As a Canadian immigrating to the States here it's, I can honestly say, about the worst thing about this country: gun ownership. And there's a lot of other bad things I could mention. I got into a big discussion with my office mates about it and they had the gaul to call me a "self-righteous Canadian." My guess is that they've never witnessed an incident like this (the one who said that wasn't in the office at the time).

geofones

Amazing story well written. Its good you didn't lock up and managed to get the number.

David

Hi, nice to meet you, though I wish it was under different circumstances.

Good to know your instincts took over. It's an emotional post. I once had an experience that left an impact on me like that but it involved a drunk driver killing a teenage girl, who was working at a car dealer across the street from a restuarant I worked at in high scool part-time. She was working there to save up money to buy Christmas gifts.

What's worse? They never caught the guy who hit her.

She had just given me her phone number as I finally got the courage to ask her for it. It's the last thing she ever did. Over a decade later, I still grasp hopelessly at the meaning of it. I still remember it vividly, yet my mind has blocked out her name in my mind, likely as a self defense mechanism.

I wish blogs existed back then, as just sharing your story with so many starts and accelerates your mental healing process. I'm jealous.

Gobion Rowlands

Hi Chris,
When I met you last night in Oxford I had no idea!
Having been through some similar (but not quite so extreme events) when I was a member of the Guardian Angels (a looooong time ago!) I can sympathise with how the shock can take a while to sink in and also the constant surprise I felt when I saw some of the horrible things people could do to each other. On the flip side, along the way I also saw some amazing generosity and compassion.

Well done for getting the shooter's number plate - it may have been dangerous, but doing *something* and getting involved can count for a lot. That people cared enough to help will be a big comfort to the wounded man's family.

Cheers,
Gobion

Claude

That's a very moving situation you had to experience. Congratulations on helping catch the shooter.

as others have written, the problem is not guns, but criminals with guns.

One thing is for sure, the shooter attempted murder and he should be punished accordingly. Not sent to pshychologist or studied or whatever other preferred methods exist in today's criminal system. The death penalty or life in prison is what's needed.

Also remember that San Francisco gun ownership in San Francisco is a big issue and the belief that denying that right to its citizens will stop the very same thing you experienced is just that, an unfounded belief.

Wolfman-K

Chris, seriously, man. Great job, and not just on the writing (which is borderline brilliant). Too many people turn their heads and ignore situations such as this. Your a great person for helping out in any way you can. And since your actions lead to the capture of the shoot I'd say your a real hero. Nice work.

pgrote

Wow. Well written, and I really feel the emotion. You did a great job of keeping your head and getting the critical information needed.

I can just feel your helplessness when you returned to the victim.

Jack Stack

I commend you for your actions. Every citizen should act on the right instincts like you did. I don't agree with you posting this and exposing you and your family to potential retribution. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Good luck and god speed.

Elias

It's a shame that you had to witness such a tragedy. It's an outrage that such a thing is so common in America that, to paraphrase Stalin, it's not a tragedy but a statistic.

The heartbreaking story David relates actually provides an apt metaphor: almost everyone in America has access to a car. A few people drive drunk, but no one asks why we don't ban cars.

Some people (MADD) ask why we don't do more and more to punish drunk drivers, though this punitive approach doesn't do anything to prevent the incidence and aftermath of offenses.

Very few ask why we don't get rid of the *real* problem - drunks. This is because despite our amazing achievements as a society we have attempted to hide our abject failure at dealing with the hopelessness and emptiness that lead so many to substance abuse.

Likewise, very few on either side of the argument address the root cause of violence, which is almost exclusively driven by economic inequality. It wasn't any coincidence that violent crime dropped to its lowest levels in 40 years during the sweet years of the late 90s when labor shortages caused fast food chains to offer starting wages up to $10 an hour.

Guns do make it much easier for human beings to kill each other. But the logistics of enforcing a ban boggle the mind when the intended targets - criminals - by definition do not follow the law.

Consequently, gun control is a canard to distract an understandably angry and scared voting public from the bitter medicine they don't want to hear: people born into poorer classes, with the deck stacked against them of ever being able to get a piece of the American dream, suffering daily humiliation from TV ads, shoddy public transportation systems, explotative financing and a million other sources, wind up looking for vindication in the most petty and physical ways.

And now with mandatory minimums and three strikes laws, they increasingly end up in a jail run by a private company, doing data entry or other rote work for pennies on the dollar, while those terrified citizens barricade themselves in gated communities or retreat to distant suburbs of sprawl.

If you want to help solve the problem of violence, I suggest voting in every election (especially local ones) for candidates who are willing to put their constituents and communities over their campaign donors. Volunteer with organizations that work for inner city kids and substance abusers. Volunteering is better, but if you really can't, then donate. And last, meet your neighbors. It amazes me the amount of people who talk to their friends and family across the country but have never met the people across the hall.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought your traumatic experience deserved a thoughtful response. I sincerely hope you will consider your social and political views after this event as thoughtfully, taking care not to fall into the easy traps of "tough on crime" and "gun control" policies.

JR

Why am I not surprised the shooter was from Vallejo? I grew up in that shithole and witnessed all kinds of violence. I left ten years ago and I haven't looked back. Solano County in general (with a couple of exceptions) is a hopeless and depressing place.

Sorry you had to witness that, and I hope the victim recovers fully.

Bryan Villarin

This was an awesome post. I'm not sure what to add, except to say that you're a hero in my eyes.

Rian

I had a similar experience a few years ago. It was a little after dinner time on a summer evening. I was walking to my car with my wife in the parking lot of an enormous mall in California.

The sound was different from yours, the sound of a baseball bat hitting a melon. Arguing over a parking space a middle-aged man and shoved a elderly gentlemen to the ground. His head hitting the pavement.

The attacker lept in his car and escaped. The victim never woke up. I chased the car on foot, but couldn't get the plate. It hurts my heart to this day.

I hope you will find some relief in knowing you helped. And I hope you and your family are safe. And I hope that the victim survives. And I hope you find healing for the fear that erupted in front of you in that moment.

Dan Shafer

Gripping stuff. You prove yourself not only to be a heroic person (I can already hear your vehement denial, but that does not make the title less true) and a wonderful narrator.

I was dismayed to see how many people chose to focus not on your experience or on the events but on the issue of gun control. Aside from a woman's right to choose, there is no more emotional topic in American socio-politics. In my experience, few if any gun advocates have actually seen someone shot with a gun or shot someone themselves. I have. I'm on your side.

Hope you enjoy your stay in Europe.

John Dowdell

Good reflexes... thank you for what you did. It's hard to think in a situation like that, but you did the appropriate thing... telling.

More info:
"The man accused of shooting a pedestrian who was crossing a San Francisco street Monday afternoon is a convicted bank robber who drove into the city to commit a random crime against a stranger, San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris said today."
http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsnews/bcn/2007/06/05/n/HeadlineNews/SF-SHOOTING/resources_bcn_html

That's why I find your plaint on "gun control" so dangerous. This felon was not legally permitted to have a gun. Yet he did.

Me, I have no interest in carrying a firearm myself, but I'd feel *much* safer if more legit citizens did so. It would reduce the incentives for evil people to abuse such "equalizers".

I'd beg you to reconsider your position. Our goal is to reduce harm, so it's vital to carefully examine the best way to prevent it. Remove the incentives for criminals to pack, and to attack. Return to citizens their equalizing power.

jd

Vijay

Chris I know you're a super bright guy so I wouldn't discount your opinion without consideration, but making judgements about the importance of the people's right to keep and bear arms in a moment of tragedy is not a good idea. It's always in moments of crisis (e.g., 911) that people are most apt to giving up their liberties for simply-stated specious solutions (have the government spy on us, or have the government collect up all our guns).

Not only is a ban on guns as futile as The War on Drugs or the Prohibition (see the 18th amendment and the consequent 21st amendment), but the real danger humanity faces is from a people unable to defend themselves against an all-powerful government. The gulf of time that separates us from the last government sanctioned genocide is not an ocean. It's barely a pond.

The founding fathers had it right when they said the right to bear arms is necessary to the preservation of a free state.

I'm sorry you had to witness a tragedy and I applaud your courage in helping catch the criminal.

Steve Lerner

Good job in keeping cool! I know you've been in some wild situations before so your instincts are well honed.

I grew up in a gang-ridden city and used to run when I heard bullets as a kid. As an adult I once saw a massive gunfight in the Mission between two gangs- I was working in a high end music studio, the one where Herbie Hancock did most of his work, and was on the 2nd floor when it started...Not sure what happened to those who got shot- I think their follow gang members hauled them away.

But as far as gun control goes- maybe if we spent hundreds of billions of dollars on education, R&D, and health care instead of on wars with no exit strategy we'd find that these types of problems decrease...

Clemens

Bravo.

Ryan Brill

Amazing story. This happened right outside of the office of the web development company I contact for. Makes it more real when you have something physical to tie the event to.

I have to strongly agree with the comments about gun control, however. The blame should never be shifted away from the people to the guns. The guns are not what commits the crime.

Keller

Intense - just another day in the life for Chris Sacca. I hope the accused individual is not part of the Marlo Stanfield crew.

Guns - Perhaps one day I'll be insecure enough to carry a gun---but for now, I'm just gonna relax and go about my way.

brian

Thanks for sharing your experience with us. It must have been tough going through what you just have.

GraceD

Amazing story brilliantly written. Thank you for giving this to the world.

John Dowdell

Hey, this is pretty amazing... look at the news coverage on this story:
http://news.google.com/news?q=townsend+vallejo&scoring=n

None of the regional newspapers picked it up, none of the nationals or wire services! Just a few early reports from police calls on the (faster-cycle) TV stations.

Even that CBS5 link has had its content changed! Wow, the link's prior content has been expunged. Fortunately it got syndicated:
http://www.fogcityjournal.com/news_in_brief/bcn_soma_shooting_070607.shtml

In addition to the above quote, here's the stuff which is being shoved down the memory hole:

Lipscomb is charged with attempted murder with a firearm, eluding police, causing great bodily injury, firing from a vehicle, and being a felon in possession of a firearm.

He faces 25 years to life in prison if convicted on the charges, according to the district attorney's office. Along with bank robbery, Lipscomb also has a prior conviction for false imprisonment, Harris said.

The noontime incident began in the South of Market area as Lipscomb drove near Townsend and Lusk streets, San Francisco police Inspector Mike Morley said.

The victim, Kenneth Lee, was waiting to cross the street when Lipscomb called him over under the guise of asking for directions, Morley said.

As Lee bent down to help Lipscomb, the suspect then allegedly shot at him three times from a .40 caliber semi-automatic weapon, according to the district attorney's office. Lee was struck in the torso, but is expected to recover.

"It appears to be totally random," Morley said. He added the Lee did nothing to provoke the attack, and the men did not know each other.

(If the original reporter's account was in error, then they should have amended the errant text while keeping the original... instead they just changed the public record, very strange.)

Yet, amazingly enough, Kenneth Eng is *still* getting coverage, and being characterized in extreme terms:
http://news.google.com/news?q=%22kenneth%20eng%22

Anthony

Comment #3 by "Duff" regarding Switzerland is false and misleading:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

Fucking gun nuts, always ready to misinform!

Steve

What is it with you pro-gun people? Open your eyes - please! Claiming that criminals won't abide by the law anyway, so banning guns have no effect, must be one of the more stupid arguments I've heard. We know they don't follow the law, and that means they will brake into YOUR house, steal YOUR lawfully owned gun, and shoot someone (perhaps even YOU!). Of course YOU store your guns safe. Do YOU know if YOUR neighbour do? It is not about the criminals, it is about YOU and what YOU can do or help to keep the amount of guns on the street down. Don't own a gun - it is that simple.

Duff

>Comment #3 by "Duff" regarding Switzerland is false and misleading:
>http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm
>
>Fucking gun nuts, always ready to misinform!

Check again, genius, I didn't post that. I take it that you're one of those condescending and obnoxious Canadians?

Anonymous

A bomb, a knife, a rope, a pill, a hand, a car, a pool, a hill,

With these, crimes happen every day; it's only guns we take away.

Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Mao, too confiscated guns somehow.

Thus controlled, the people fled or joined 100 million dead.


Erin

To the person who said:

"hammers kill"

I hope some hits you over the head with one.

Talk about insensitive.

bill

hey erin, is hoping someone gets hit in the head with a hammer for voicing an opinion 'sensitive'?

bill

hey erin, is hoping someone gets hit in the head with a hammer for voicing an opinion 'sensitive'?

jules

Hi Chris,
I work just around the corner and we were all a bit shocked by what happened. Most of us were walking on our way back from lunch and saw the police responding. It was very interesting to hear your account of what happened. Things like this can be horribly shocking and interestingly enlightening at the same time. Hope your experience ends up being weighted on the latter.

Charleton Heston

@Steve,

You're the idiot. You really believe banning guns will change anything? Ever hear of cocaine, crack, heroin, meth, speed, pcp, etc? Apparently not because by your logic they aren't a society wide problem. Or is the problem not their effect but just that they're illegal? Maybe we should all just say 'no' to guns? That seemed to have worked so well in the past huh? I have an idea for you, take your family to Yellowstone park and hike into the wilderness 500 yards and pitch a tent. Wait there for a while. You'll reconsider your naive and ignorant point of view when you're face to face with 2500 pound grisly bear. Better yet and safer for your family, go out to Provo, UT where you'll find yourself surrounded by peaceful Mormons who, as a general subset of the population of UT actually do say 'no' to drugs and alcohol and live a peaceful life with minimal violent crimes occuring in their communities. Park in front of a school or church and count how many guns you see in the back windows of trucks and then compare that with California where it is illegal to ride around with a gun in your car yet proportionally speaking CA has more violent crimes per capita than UT.

Wake up morons, guns, cars, hammers, bridges, buildings, knives, airplanes, ryder trucks loaded with dynamite, nuclear weapons, scud missile, stealth fighters, etc don't kill people. People kill each other. You want to fix that problem you should realize that guns can be replaced with fire, rocks, shards of glass, trained animals, a vehicle, whatever people can dream up. People are the problem, not the guns and the drugs. The violence stemming from drugs doesn't have to but what excuse would you left wing liberal theorists use to increase taxes and who would you hand out welfare checks to?

Surely you can't really be the jackass come across as. Do us all a favor and arm the citizens of the UK because then maybe you could do something to stop the breeding ground of terrorism it has become. But its safe right? Your logic is so broken that you have universally been nominated for the ''Most Stupid Comment of the Year" award for next years Webbys. Hopefully on your flight over some idiot with a lighter and canister of toothpaste doesn't blow up your plane.

Duff

Chill out, people. Take those hammers and build something with them.

Pete

The reason American's think its ok to have guns is because its in their constitution right? The reason was completely justified back then, but it just doesn't make any sense any more. I think it's ludicrous to carry be able to legally to own and carry guns.

Steamy Kitchen

Wow. I don't know what i would have acted the same. I think being a mom of 2 toddlers has changed me so much - I act out of security and welfare of my kids, so my number one job is to protect them and make sure thay have a safe home. Thus, I probably wouldn't have darted out and gotten closer to the shooter. Makes me think though on how much I have changed in 4 years. Before children, I might have done the same as you!

tomo

Pete,

Yes, it is our right to own firearms. Always has been, always will.

Based on your logic, what do we even need a constitution for?

We should just rip it up and throw it away because sooo much has changed in 150 years?

What about slavery? Should we not have a ban on slavery either. After all, it is so different now compared to 150 years ago, right?

We don't need free speech or the right to elect our government either, right?

Which cult is it that you belong to? Drink some more kool aid....for you we will just call it Kook Aid.

Pat Mayer

I have heard about blogs, but never really read one. Your account of the incident is riveting. Thank you for sharing, I felt like I was there.

Mark Connor

Hey cousin that is amazing. Ok and I am a little worried about something, you might want to delete that license plate number from the post just incase the criminal 'google's' the number and ur blog comes up. the family wouldn't want you to have to enter the witness protection agency! see u this summer

Shauna

Hi Chris,
Had a fun, interesting evening with our friend KU...so I googled you!
What a strange/life changing event to be a witness. What a courageous thing you did....it must give you pause...
My husband and his friend (ex DIA, gun expert witness)and I had a very interesting discussion recently about gun control.
Here's the problem as I see it--people (especially criminals) will always be able to get guns on the street (like drugs). So denying innocent citizens of getting guns legally to protect themselves, their families and their homes isn't really fair. (although I entirely agree with gun education--you should have to pass a test, a license like driving a car)but,
PEOPLE kill people. A gun is a weapon, but so is a knife, poison, shank, or baseball bat.
A bad person killed the man you witnessed. Not a car driving away, a person.
How do we change that? The age old mystery....
I'm not a gun nut, nor an advocate, just a base for discussion...I wish we all lived in john lennon's "Imagine" world, but then, what is really practical?

Shauna

I posted this without reading the previous responses...someone actually accused you of drinking kook aid? Now THAT is funny!

Manu Sharma

I just saw Micheal Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" last night. I suggest anyone trying to understand America's gun culture takes a look.

Moore argues that, although it makes a difference, gun ownership is not the primary reason for the high rate of deaths caused by firearms in US- Canada has as many guns and yet their crime record is quite low.

He also argues that it's not America's bloody past either - UK and Germany have much more violence in their past. Instead, what's largely responsible is the climate of fear largely perpetrated by the US media and US politics. He also draws parallels between the Columbine shootings and various clandestine US operations abroad in which hundreds of thousands have died in the past 50 years.

Garsen Subramoney

Good on you for getting involved when you saw something wrong being done. I know lots of people would have said its not by business and continued walking away.

baris

Great story. Happy to hear you are well.

And it's really sad to read the arguments of the pro-gun crowd.

See you at iMeme.

Matthew Charles Siegel

This is totally random, but I happened upon your blog and realized that you're the same Chris Sacca who happened to be my best friend's brother as a kid. I actually remember those movies you guys made as kids.....and lasertag down in the escarpment...good times. Ironically enough, I'm in Brooklyn working with dually diagnosed, homeless clients, and have almost crossed paths with your brother a couple times. Apparently he plays poker occasionally with some of my poet friends. I think I'll drop him a line, since I haven't talked to him in years. Anyways, just wanted to say hi. It's nice to see fellow Lockportians who have managed to escape. Alex P. Keaton...lol. Oh yeah, and your experience reminded me of something to happened to me. I wrote this poem about it.

Me, the Bullet, and the Scream
-----------------------------------
There is a logic to deciphering gunshots.

They speak a language, which sounds
like the beat of a drunken jazz percussionist
pounding the sweaty off time crescendo into a flourish
until a single exhausted shell
collapses to the sidewalk
as gentle as a cymbal brush
the final cracking note
left to hang in the curried air
like the body everyone recognizes
but no one can assign a name.

Too discordant to be a firecracker
too still, the violent quiet
both before and after
letting you know that this
was no muffler, no
early morning commuter, no
squad car gnawing on the nerves
of some rookie cop with a itchy trigger finger
not even the portentous pop of some drug dealer
on his way to cornering the market.

This was the bullet
the papers
will refer to as a stray,
the mongrel
that ripped the meat
from the bloody carcass
of your morning's pulsing tranquility.

And it is at this moment that you wish
your head could backfire
that you could twist the still smoking steel
around itself like some kind of super hero
could coil this dancing snake
and lull it into stillness.
Still
like this street
which is too altogether quiet
for what has just transpired.

And we will sit down to dinner tonight
say our prayers, rejoice our good fortune
without her, and we will be truly thankful.

This is no story for the dinner table,
no great moral to be provided except
for perhaps at a gun show
or at some fancy political fundraiser
some dinner
where this woman’s fate
and so many like her
was, and will be
in part, decided.
Where the scratched serial number
of her granddaughter’s voice
could burrow its lead ridden timbre
into the yellow taped skull
of every gun lobbyist in Washington.

As dawn breaks
so too does her granddaughter’s scream
an indiscriminate knife
swinging through the air
the blade still wet with incredulity
eventually it wanes into a drunken stumble
futility stabbing at a target
that recedes further and further
with every dodging lance at comprehension

conveniently collapsed
into a bullet ridden alleyway
where no one
will notice it,
where no one
will ever have to gather up the courage
to wrest that screaming scythe of a blade
from her throat.

The entry wounds on her tongue
left without exit
will never bleed.

It was not until recently
that I thought to buy a gun.

Maybe I had finally come to a point
where I trusted other people
less than I trusted myself

or maybe I only wanted to understand
something that has always seemed so foreign to me
to cut through that fleshy yellow tape
that separates the criminal
from the crime scene
to immerse myself in a shower of bullets
and wade into the deep end of flesh
to rinse away the debris of knowledge
that my innocence and idealism threaten to infect
to kill and come out clean.

This morning I woke up, I heard the music, I realized
that there is a logic to deciphering gunshots
but some things, for me at least
remain
beyond translation.

Eric S

Chris, that was well written. I was near witness to a shooting a month ago in SF myself. It was about 2 blocks away while I was on the sidewalk. About 8 gunshots and 3 people were hit and the car sped off. It was the middle of the night.

However, I don't understand why you want me not to own a gun to protect my family because criminals are out shooting people. The view you expressed at the end of the story makes no logical sense whatsoever.

I had to pull my gun out a month ago or so when there was a crashing noise downstairs in the middle of the night. I have 4 people in my house except for myself and it is my responsibility to protect them. They can't protect themselves.

You seem to prefer that I was unarmed. What should I do then... call 911 and wait for the police to show up sometime if there is someone in my house? Go down with a baseball bat to face a guy with a gun? Hide in a corner with my kids and rest of my family at risk?

Take the guns away from the criminals, sure. But as a father I deserve (more like demand) the right to protect the people I must protect by any means that I can.

It is unfair to say that criminals can run around with guns and I have to be unarmed to face them because you witnessed a criminal shooting someone. Because someone drunk drives and runs someone over, does taking away my car make any sense?

- Eric

Esenthal Prave

I'm not sure what the hold-up is... maybe they have re-thought their stance on how this is going to actually make the company any money. Or perhaps their lawyers pointed out the liability of providing agents a platform to stick their feet in their mouth. Whatever it is, it's hardly something I'd claim as being "Well done".
www.jebshouse.com/wordletter.php?l=D

Aeman Khan

That was an amazing story

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I totally love this article. I think you could write some other things to make your

blog more complete

Gavan Woolery

I actually was witness to a gunshot wound myself. While in school at CSUCI, I heard -- exactly like you -- what I thought might be fireworks. I took the elevator down to investigate. A young man was bleeding profusely from the stomach and lying on the ground, and a police officer (a woman) was standing over him with a gun, calling in for medical support. Apparently what happened was the guy was drunk in public (I think he was 19), and the police officer confronted him. The confrontation led to a wrestling match of sorts, and the guy stupidly reached for her gun. She pulled it out and shot him (nonlethally) in self defense, which I believe is proper police protocol. (Apparently, this is really what happened, according to the witnesses that were at the scene before the gunshot).

My personal stance:
I dislike guns (except in fictional contexts, in which case they are awesome), and I dislike war. But there are bad people in this world, and no amount of idealism will change that. Even if we outlaw guns completely, they still are not difficult to manufacture and the black market will become that much more lucrative for them, fueling further crime. Moreover, it leaves the honest people without a means of defense. Yes, there are pain-causing weapons that are nonlethal, but I guarantee they won't strike fear into the heart of a criminal like a gun does, and could actually lead to more innocent people getting killed in attempt to defend themselves.

It does not matter what country you are in, no amount of laws will make guns disappear. Do you think laws have been successful in making prostitution disappear? Where there is a market, there is a means.

And as at least one other person pointed out, if you think it is only desperate circumstances that create bad people, you would be wrong. There are people who are born killers, sociopaths and psychopaths, people who take pleasure in watching others suffer. I know of these people because my parents deal with them occasionally, they get death threats from them in their line of work. They are the so-called "criminally-insane", and they are often difficult to detect...most of them are not apprehended until they commit a crime. Until we are able to hack our genetic makeup and get such people out of the gene pool, I will actually feel safer with guns around.

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